Cultural stumble

[mbarker]

That was kind of interesting. Last evening we had dinner with a Japanese postdoc who works fairly hard on his English. While we were talking, he admitted to being puzzled about the difference between Halloween and Thanksgiving. Mitsuko (my wife) and I took a moment or two to catch on, and then double-checked. Sure enough, he thought they were the same holiday. And he was fairly sure that other Japanese also thought they were the same.

So I explained what I know of the origins -- All Halloweds (the celebration of unknown saints), then the mirror celebration of evil on the night before with ghosts and such. Trick or treat. He asked how pumpkins got involved, and I suggested it was the Headless Horseman, and summarized that story. We also pinned down the date -- Oct. 31.

Then we went over Thanksgiving. Pilgrims and Indians, turkeys, corn, etc. A harvest celebration. And the date is the fourth Thursday in November. Aha! He also associated pumpkins with this, and I admitted, pumpkin pie and such are usually part of the feast. But it's mostly a time for eating.

Interesting confusion. Both are in the fall, and both involve corn and pumpkins. From living in America, they are distinctly different. But from a distance, somehow they got merged.

Comments

[dialyn.livejournal.com]

The pumpkin tradition didn't start with the Headless Horseman. The tradition of celebrating Samhain goes back 2,000 years, back to the Celts.

History of Halloween (http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Generic&content_type_id=713&display_order=1&mini_id=1076):

In Ireland and Scotland, people began to make their own versions of Jack's lanterns by carving scary faces into turnips or potatoes and placing them into windows or near doors to frighten away Stingy Jack and other wandering evil spirits. In England, large beets are used. Immigrants from these countries brought the jack o'lantern tradition with them when they came to the United States. They soon found that pumpkins, a fruit native to America, make perfect jack o'lanterns.

What the U.S. has done is adopt a European tradition in Halloween (festival of Samhain) and then created its own holiday in Thanksgiving. One has not much to do with the other, though I can see why it would seem pretty much the same to someone in another country.

[saruby.livejournal.com]

One distinction for me is that Halloween has religious significance (although perhaps not to the average American) and Thanksgiving is a political holiday.

[dialyn.livejournal.com]

Good point. Also, one has to do with giving out treats in order to avoid getting tricked, while the other one is supposed to be about giving thanks for what one has. One involves costumes of fantasy and imagination, the other has to do with history. There are a lot of differences, but perhaps not to someone in another country with a different cultural background.

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

I think of Thanksgiving as a historical holiday, but you're right, it lacks that religious tie-in. Incidentally, one of the people at the dinner is from El Salvador, and he said that his background includes Halloween, but not Thanksgiving. I gather Halloween is much more of a European and descendants holiday, while Thanksgiving is pretty much North American/USA.

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

Ah - thanks! I had no idea where the notion of carved pumpkins came from, although I had read the story of the Headless Horseman. Drat, I knew about Samhain, too -- although maybe I'll leave well enough alone. Our friend certainly looked a little surprised at all the knowledge we dumped on him during dinner. It was funny how both my wife and myself suddenly started dragging our memories about what each of these festivals is, and how they are different.

[dialyn.livejournal.com]

To tell you the truth, it might be hard to explain the connection between carved potatoes and beets, and carved pumpkins anyway. Do you think it would have made a difference to U.S. Halloween traditions of the headless horsemen was carrying a beet under his arm???

[mbarker.livejournal.com]

I don't think it would have quite the same graphic impact? I mean, I think of this huge pumpkin with a candle inside flying through the air -- if it was a beet or a turnip, well, it's not the same. :-)