A Word in Your Eye

Writing Excuses 20.43:  An Interview with Dr. Tara Lepore on Paleontology

From https://writingexcuses.com/20-43-an-interview-with-dr-tara-lepore-on-paleontology

Key points: Paleontology is more than just dinosaurs. Mammal teeth have a neonatal line formed during birth. What is paleontology? Lots of stuff! The study of life on Earth and how it came to be, the evolution of life. Integrative more than boundaries. What do you get tired of answering? Indiana Jones was an archeologist, and Ross from Friends was a paleontologist, but so were others! What can paleontology tell us? It's like a time machine. Deep time! Snowball Earth! For more information, try your local museum or library.

[Season 20, Episode  43]

[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.

[Season 20, Episode  43]

[Erin] This is Writing Excuses.

[Howard]  An interview with Dr. Tara Lepore on paleontology. 

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] I'm Howard.

[Howard] And we're joined by paleontologist and newly minted Doctor Tara Lepore.

[Tara] Hey, everybody. How's it going?

[Howard] We are so excited to have you here. Because we all have so many questions. I'm going to lead with the big one. Are you in the feathers or not feathers camp?

[Chuckles]

[Tara] Oh, you're cutting it deep, right off the bat. Yeah. Full disclosure, the last 5 years of my paleontology work have been on mammals. But, as a velociraptor fan and also reader of many papers on feathers, I'm in the feathers camp. I'm in the... There's a lot of evidence for feathers. But not all dinosaurs probably had feathers. Yeah. So kick it off with the feather stuff. That's what I have to say about that.

[Howard] I gotta say, we're all... I say we are all. I'm a 56-year-old dude, and so my introduction to dinosaurs was kind of... On the one hand was Dinotopia, and on the other hand was Jurassic Park. So we're either going to ride them like horses or they're going to eat us like we are livestock. And... But we all were fascinated by them, we loved them, and the look on your face, for those who are not benefiting from the video feed, tells me paleontology is actually a lot more than just dinosaurs, Howard.

[Tara] Yeah. Although I will say, full disclosure, as a kid, I watched Dino Riders. Which is another show about riding on top of dinosaurs that have lasers attached to their heads.

[Chuckles]

[Tara] So... Big fan, and we could talk about Beast Wars, the Transformers with animals, they're top epic. But there is, Howard, a lot more to do with paleontology than just dinosaurs. I'm happy to talk more about that. And as I alluded to, just a few minutes ago, I've been diving into the world of fossil and modern mammals and mammal evolution. Yeah, so we can zoom way out and talk about all the good stuff.

[Howard] Okay. One of my favorite questions to ask an expert on anything is... And I'm going to tee up mammals... What's the most interesting thing you've learned about paleontological mammals recently?

[Tara] Oh, yeah. So, part of my PhD dissertation research had to do with looking inside mammal teeth. So slicing them up. These were deceased mammals, mostly modern mammals I asked very nicely. And so I was looking at all kinds of modern mammal teeth, looking for evidence of birth, so there's actually like a little line that we can call like a birth certificate, a line called the neonatal line, like a neonate. And it forms in all the teeth that are forming during the birth transition in humans. And some friends of mine, some colleagues, came out with a study looking at not just modern mammals, not just humans, but looking at one of the oldest mammals that has this evidence marker of what we would think of today as a placental mammal birth. So the kind of birth that humans have, with the placenta. And the mammal had this line, this neonatal line, inside its teeth, and it was from just after the end of the age of dinosaurs. Which makes sense, because mammals at that time would have been what we call placental mammals today. There were also examples of marsupials, at least early ones, and monotremes, early ones. But I think it's so cool because we can zoom in inside of teeth and look at the chemistry and the structure inside teeth, we can kind of connect our own history of birth as like human beings to some of the earliest mammals. And I would love to see where that line of work goes, like, looking at the mammals that were around during the time of dinosaurs. So, birth certificates inside our mouths connecting us to all mammals and mammal evolution. I think it's super, super cool.

[Howard] That is... That is I mean...

[Tara] Yes.

[Howard] Fascinating and mind blowing. The idea that we have a... There's a bone structure in our mouths that says, yeah, you didn't come from an egg. You came from a uterus. And you're saying that that shows that placental birth for mammals is 60 to 65 million years old.

[Tara] At least. And then there's a whole boatload of other pieces of evidence that we can look at in the skeleton of mammals and also in some of the genes that have to do with, like, egg yolk and why don't humans have egg yolk, but we have other stuff that's yolk-y or amniotic at least and all these other kind of pieces of evidence that come along with being a mammal. But looking inside the teeth is one really cool way that we can kind of get a better sense of where we came from and also what mammals were doing back in the time of dinosaurs. So I'm super psyched about that kind of stuff.

[Howard] That is so cool.

[Erin] One of the things that I really love about this is... Thinking about, if I said, like, all the information... this is a misstatement of what you said, but like all the information about you is in your teeth. That sounds like something that is very science fictional. You know what I mean? And so what I think is really cool about looking at these, like, these types of scientific studies, are you can extrapolate pieces from those. So even if you aren't  writing about dinosaurs specifically, or ancient mammals, there's something really cool in the way that you're studying it that I could take that piece of information and put it in a story as some really interesting fact that I then build an entire world or species around. And... So I just think that's cool. But also, I just have a question, as somebody who does not know much. I'll be honest. Like, I am the, like, paleontological newbie, I guess, of the group. Which is, like, what then does make something paleontology? Is it about the time period it is, is it about the type of creature? Are there any things where like we will refuse to study bugs? Like, what is it that makes something within your realm?

[Tara] Yeah. Totally, Erin, that's a great question. And it's one that we get a lot  also in the kind of world of outreach and education as paleontologists. So, my training is specifically in what I would call vertebrate paleontology, where I work really specifically on vertebrates. I worked on everything within that from mammals and mammal teeth to dinosaur footprints and trackways to even... And this is a great party conversation starter, but... Dinosaur poop. Droppings, fossils known as coprolites.

[Chuckles]

[Tara] So, really, a lot of stuff can fall within vertebrate paleontology. But to get to your question, paleontology is the study of all life on Earth and how it came to be as we understand it today. So the evolution of life on Earth. It could be involving bacteria, plants, fungi, all kinds of vertebrates, invertebrates, shelled... All kinds of shelled organisms. So there's a ton of stuff within paleontology that really is united by the study of the evolution of life on Earth.

[Howard] It sounds... And I could be too freely mixing of my disciplines here, but it sounds like paleontology without organic chemistry, paleontology without geology, paleontology without astrophysics stops being complete paleontology. Because if you don't know how to tell, for instance, that an asteroid hit the Yucatan Peninsula, then a lot of your fossils don't make sense, and you don't have the whole story. How... How is the wrong way to start that question. Do you guys draw like discreet lines... You. You are a geologist, not a paleontologist. Go to your rock room.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] Stay away from my bones.

[Tara] I do have a rock room. No, I wish I did, actually. The program that I came from and the way I was trained throughout different parts of my career is to think of what I do as integrative. I did my PhD in an integrative biology department. And you mentioned geology, and often people will need to learn a lot about geology and rocks, as well as biology and the study of life, to do different kinds of paleontological work. That being said, I'm also a really big kind of supporter of thinking across what we might traditionally call boundaries between different disciplines. I think we really learn a lot when we talk to the people who do organic chemistry or we talk to the people who are studying insects, maybe that are alive today. In my line of work, I did quite a bit of cross talk with people who look at modern mammals and modern mammal birth, because that also helped me understand a little bit more about the landscape of how mammals are born today and what do we know about them and what is their parental kind of care and things like that. Sometimes in our scientific communities, we will have different conferences that can kind of push people into that silo effect, where we'll go to a geological society meeting or a paleontology meeting or vertebrate paleontology over here. But I also think that we have a lot to gain by breaking down those kinds of silos. So, yes, some structure exists, but I think we have a lot more fun and do a lot more interesting things when we have spaces where people can talk together. And not just as scientists, but as people who do all kinds of different types of work. Some of the best people I know in paleontology have come from really wide-ranging backgrounds. I have a really good friend who had an English degree as their first degree. And I really feel like we need to open up more spaces for that kind of stuff. Because it's all about telling stories. Stories about Earth and life and everything that's relevant to us today. So I think we benefit from a wide range of backgrounds.

[Howard] That's... That's amazing. And as writers, we kind of have to be interdisciplinary. As Erin pointed out, oh, now that I know this thing about mammal teeth, I can invent a thing about these alien jaw bones or whatever and use it to inform my story. And Erin doesn't need to be a paleontologist. And I don't need to be an astrophysicist. But we need to know that those disciplines exist, and we need to... Like, the way English steals from other languages, we need to steal from all the other disciplines in order to do the things that we want to do. I think it was Terry Pratchett who said English doesn't borrow from other languages, it follows them down dark alleys and mugs them, and then goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

[laughter]

[Howard] But, yeah, the idea that we don't want these silos. getting an English degree is fine if you just want to know how English works. But if you want to actually write stories about interesting things, you have to learn all the interesting things. And learning all the interesting things brings us to a nice spot to pause.

[DongWon] For more than a decade, we've hosted Writing Excuses at sea, an annual workshop and retreat in a cruise ship. You're invited to our final cruise in 2026. It's a chance to learn, connect, and grow, all while sailing along the stunning Alaskan and Canadian coast. Join us, the hosts of Writing Excuses, and spend dedicated time leveling up your writing craft. Attend classes, join small group breakout sessions, learn from instructors one on one at office hours, and meet with all the writers from around the world. During the week-long retreat, we'll also dock at 3 Alaskan ports, Juneau, Sitka, and Skagway, as well as Victoria, British Columbia. Use this time to write on the ship or choose excursions that allow you to get up close and personal with glaciers, go whale watching, and learn more about the rich history of the region and more. Next year will be our grand finale after over 10 years of successful retreats at sea. Whether you're a long time alumni or a newcomer, we would love to see you on board. Early bird pricing is currently available, and we also offer scholarships. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats.

[Tara] So, we want to give a shout out to the University of California Museum of Paleontology. Or UCMP. And UCMP is a museum that I just finished up my graduate work at, and it is based at the University of California, Berkeley. And they have an amazing website ucmp.berkeley.edu. And this is a really great one-stop shop if you want to go on there and check out what it's like to be a paleontologist. They also have really great resources on understanding evolution and understanding science, which is really widely accessed by a lot of teachers and other educators, and there are a  number of blog posts that are also written on the UCMP website that were written by grad students, myself included. But I also just want to give a shout out for everybody who shared their really great research through these blog posts so if you click on the UCMP website, you'll find a link for blog posts. And, yeah, I think it's a really great resource in general on that website. Just for people who want to learn more about paleontology.

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[Howard] We're back. Tara, I have a question for you, and it's a scary one. What's the question that you get tired of answering?

[Tara] Oh, man. I'm getting tired just thinking about it.

[Chuckles]

[Tara] So I want to preface all of this with I would never get mad or upset or push somebody away or be like, no, you don't know what you're talking about. But I kind of grit my teeth a little bit when people try to relate what I do as a paleontologist and they say something like, oh, yeah, I really love Indiana Jones too, or, I absolutely can relate to that because of Ross  from Friends. and I feel like we're doing society as a whole a disservice because Indiana Jones, for better or worse, was supposed to be an archaeologist, and I think that's also an important distinction that we can make in our conversation about, like, that difference. and Ross from Friends, I mean if you even watched Friends or know that Ross, the character, was a paleontologist, if that's our only touch point for paleontology, and people are skipping right over, like, I don't know, Ellie Sattler, Ellen Grants, any of the other fictional people from the movies, then I think we're just missing out. And so, yeah, it makes me grit my teeth a little.

[Erin] What... It's funny, that gives me an idea for a question, which is a lot of that's about stories, that we were talking a little bit earlier about how paleontology helps you tell these really interesting stories about the way that the Earth existed in all the... The thing that you said earlier that I'm not going to remember or do credit to. But these other stories have sort of taken the focus, it's like, this is what paleontology is. So a question I have is what are some of the stories about our world, about beings and creatures on it, that paleontology is able to tell in a way that no other field can?

[Tara] Yeah. That's a really good question, because I think paleontology and other ways of looking at the natural world, different kinds of sciences and also social sciences, we unite all  of these ways of thinking. Paleontology as situated in that context gives us like the next best thing to a time machine. And I really think that that's a powerful way that people can not only connect to paleontology as a concept, as a science, but to think about why it matters, and what can paleontology tell us about the story of life on Earth. Which is really our story as human beings. And, of course, there's a whole field too that has to do with human history and human evolution and things like that, related to paleontology. Some might say that there's a lot of overlap, but that would be things like paleoanthropology, for  example, the study of ancient humans. And often those folks will work with people who are more expertise in other types of life besides humans. So, yeah, I think having the ability to look back into what we might call deep time, not just the time frame of human lifespans or human history, but deep time that goes into thousands and millions and even billions of years. Way back before humans were around. I think paleontology is a really cool kind of vector for us to do that. And it's a big reason why I think it also captures a lot of people's imaginations. Like, paleontology can help us learn about what life was like before any people were here.

[Howard] I love the concept... Just the idea, the mental framework that the words deep time create. Just this idea that the stories that we're able to tell from history, the stories we're able to tell from deep history... We have writings that are 5,000 years old or whatever. Those are shallow time. Those are back when the moon was still in basically the same orbit it's in now. One of my favorite deep time stories is, oh, yeah, y'all, the moon was a planet that slammed into Earth and spat back out and there was a whole ring around Earth for a long time. I say a long time, I don't know how long the ring lasted, but Earth was a hot, miserable place for a long time and the moon was really close and it's been moving away. And I love that story. I can't remember which... There was some show I watched where they've gone back in time and someone looked up at the sky and was like, the Moon is too close. Oh, crap.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] We went back further than we were supposed to. Because if I can see that the Moon is bigger, actually bigger, not on the horizon, optical illusion bigger, then we overshot. So, yeah, I love deep time. And I want to re-ask Erin's question, do you have a favorite deep time story? I've already told you, mine's the Moon. Do you have one?

[Tara] Oh, wow. So deep time, thinking about all the things that have happened to and on this planet that I'm aware of, and there are many more that I'm not aware of. My mind immediately goes to how the planet has changed and, Howard, you mentioned how the Moon was formed and Earth was changed. It was a hot molten mass for so many millions and millions of years. I like thinking about how Earth has changed, how it went through a period called Snowball Earth, where at least there's good evidence that for several million years, the Earth was an ice ball planet and not entirely inhospitable to life, but very different from what we would think of it today.

[Howard] Not friendly to sunbathers.

[Chuckles]

[Tara] Exactly. I'm sure there was great snowshoeing. But, yeah... And then my area of thinking about this often comes back to the animals and plants and the interesting kind of creatures that, number one, we have evidence of in the fossil record but, number two, this is sort of like... Not so much my favorite part of deep time, but something I love thinking about is what are the creatures that probably existed but never became fossilized? Or if they did, we haven't found them yet? So I love thinking about the huge diverse array of life on Earth that we know of from the fossil record and how imperfect and incomplete that fossil record is. And it just is such an imaginative and creative thing. Not just as a scientist, which I think can be a really creative endeavor, but as somebody who likes to think about stories and wonder what else was here? So, yeah.  I think that kind of stuff is really cool to think about.

[Erin] Yeah. And I think the... One of the things that I love about that is how many possibilities it opens up. Again, not just for the thing that it is, but for the things that we can imagine. If you think about, okay, I'm  writing a story that's... We're going to go to an ice planet. Finding out that there was a snowball Earth, like, there's actually a thing you could study looking back that could help you create a planet a million years away or in a fantastical landscape that has no human intervention, based on that. So I'm wondering, like, if we wanted to get more of these stories, I mean we could keep you here for hours and we wish we could, but, like, what are some other resources that, like, we could go to in addition to the one you shared at the break? Are there other places to start when we're looking for this kind of information to inspire us to  create interesting stories?

[Tara] Yeah. So I think that there are a whole number of different museums around the country and around the world that are doing really cool work, both online and in person. Trying to share these kinds of stories with the public and maybe with people who aren't always tapped into the, say, paleontology realm or maybe really interested in it, but they don't know where to start. So I think that a really great just general shout out is, if you have a local museum, even if it's really small, try checking them out. And you can also search for, like, what we would call accredited museums through the American Association of Museums, the AAM. So that's just another place where if you're like, I don't know if this museum is telling me the truth or what's going on or what is truth? Ah! Existential crisis. But, yeah, there are a number of really great museums that you can visit, and I'm a big fan of local museums. I got my start in paleontology as a volunteer just going to my local museum, and I think that made a huge impact on my life. And this sounds really old school, but just honestly the library, because a librarian or somebody that you can talk to and say, hey, what resources do you have on this? I really like the idea of just touching base with those kinds of folks. For me, a lot of that was something that I had really the privilege to access through the PhD program and I could talk with people. But I also really want to shout out, like, check out your local library, talk to your local museum. If you don't have a local museum, look for a website of one in the biggest city near you period and uhm yeah. I think that's what I would probably highlight the most.

[Howard] I love librarians. I mean, they're like the original interdisciplinarians because... They're not... They're literally not allowed to put a book on the shelf unless they've read it. So they've read all the books. And this fact that I just made up now...

[laughter]

[Tara][garbled] true?

[laughter]

[Howard] I'm so sorry. I'm a terrible person.

[Tara][garbled] librarians[garbled]

[so many years in solitude]

[Howard] But librarians get asked all of the questions all of the time, and, yeah, they're a brilliant resource. Well, gosh, we could just keep talking, and asking, and talking, and sharing. I love this, but at some point, we have to send everybody home with some homework. Tara? Do you have some homework for our listeners?

[Tara] Yeah. So I would love for the listeners to think about if you have some way of making deep time, this concept of deep time, within the millions and maybe billions of years, relevant to your upcoming or current writing project. So, maybe pick three ways that deep time could be interwoven into what you're currently working on, whether that's a fantasy, with what kind of fossils could have been on that planet, or maybe it's as simple as how deep time and fossils and the Earth are relevant to your memoir. So, yeah, pick three things and see what comes up this next few weeks and enjoy. I hope it's an interesting exercise.

[Howard] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go write.

Writing Excuses 20.42:  Erin Roberts' Personal Writing Process

From https://writingexcuses.com/20-42-erin-roberts-personal-writing-process

Key points: A grab bag of random processes? getting work, getting in, getting done, and getting right. Should I take on this project? Saying no, or at least, can we do it later? Spreadsheet of projects! Star ratings. On time, good work, pleasant to work with. Geese monsters. Having a personal life. If you're going to miss a deadline, tell them early. Getting in. Hook yourself, with voice or an idea. Go back and write a key moment in the character's life to find their voice. Talk to your cat, or rubber duck, to test ideas. Get it done. Deadlines can help. Have Microsoft Word read to you. Take a nap or other break!

[Season 20, Episode 42]

[DongWon] For more than a decade, we've hosted Writing Excuses at sea, an annual workshop and retreat in a cruise ship. You're invited to our final cruise in 2026. It's a chance to learn, connect, and grow, all while sailing along the stunning Alaskan and Canadian coast. Join us, the hosts of Writing Excuses, and spend dedicated time leveling up your writing craft. Attend classes, join small group breakout sessions, learn from instructors one on one at office hours, and meet with all the writers from around the world. During the week-long retreat, we'll also dock at 3 Alaskan ports, Juneau, Sitka, and Skagway, as well as Victoria, British Columbia. Use this time to write on the ship or choose excursions that allow you to get up close and personal with glaciers, go whale watching, and learn more about the rich history of the region and more. Next year will be our grand finale after over 10 years of successful retreats at sea. Whether you're a long time alumni or a newcomer, we would love to see you on board. Early bird pricing is currently available, and we also offer scholarships. You can learn more at writingexcuses.com/retreats.

[Mary Robinette] This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons, and friends. If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/writingexcuses.

[Season 20, Episode 42]

[Mary Robinette] This is Writing Excuses.

[DongWon] Erin's personal writing process.

[Mary Robinette] I'm Mary Robinette.

[DongWon] I'm DongWon.

[Dan] I'm Dan.

[Erin] I'm Erin.

[Howard] And I'm Howard.

[Erin] And I have been apprehensive about this episode since we decided to do it. Because I feel like my writing process is like a bunch of random practices thrown into a bag and shaken up, and then every so often, I reach in and see what's working for me or what's not. But you may also be like this, and not have a completely organized idea of your writing process. So hopefully, this is helpful. And I have organized it in my head into four categories, because I still like to be slightly organized.

[laughter]

[Erin] Which is... This is all part of my writing process...

[Dan] This is a very organized grab bag.

[Erin] Outline. Which is, getting work, getting in, getting done, and getting right. So those are basically how do I manage my sort of business creative life, how do I start writing, how do I stop writing and turn something in, and how do I live a balanced life. And because I am a game writer, I'm going to let y'all pick which one you want to hear about first.

[DongWon] I just want to say a thing first, which is, this is not me calling you out. But I do think that there is a thing where... I think... I've had a similar conversation with a lot of writers. They'll be like, oh, I don't have a process. I don't know what I'm doing or whatever it is. And then as soon as you're talking to  them, it's like, no, there are these things. You are doing this thing. And I think, one thing that I was excited to sort of talk about this with Erin after she was like I don't have a process, I don't know what you're talking about in this episode, is I think that's how most people feel. I think we're only able to talk about this in a really cogent way right now because we're doing the work that Erin just described, of sitting down and being like, okay, what chaotic things do I do and how do I explain them? And then when you explain it, it looks more cogent and coherent. Right? But I think the process of looking at it is the thing that makes it sound like a thing. I think for a lot of us, it really is instinctual or habitual or whatever it is. So if you're listening to these episodes and being like, well, I don't have a thing like Mary Robinette does, then I think that's totally fine, and you just find it as you go.

[Erin] Absolutely, makes sense.

[Mary Robinette] So since you gave us four things and you said it's like a game, I am rolling a die and it says number one.

[Erin] Okay. Getting work. So that is... Thank you. I love that we gamified it.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] You can listen to this out of order and not miss anything.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] So, getting work. And it's funny, because I think we have an episode coming up that's about the business of writing. As someone who makes a living essentially writing, like, everything I do is writing, which I think is what makes it difficult to think about the writing process. Because I do freelance writing for games, I do my own prose writing, I do script writing, I do video game writing. It's all writing. Even though some of it is for direct cash, like you paid me to write this thing, and some of it is my own work. It all comes from the creative part of my brain. And so it's hard for me sometimes to separate one from the other. But I have to. Because otherwise, I will get lost. So I have a lot of things that I do in order to figure out should I take on a project. How do I manage the projects that I have in front of me? And, like, how do I know what I need to do on any given day? To figure out if I should take on a project, because it is a mistake you can make, I think, in... No matter what you're doing, is to overcommit yourself to things, because it's hard to say no when things seem really cool. But you are better off saying no, or saying even I can't right now, can I get back to you? Or could we do this another time? Or I can't at the moment. Then saying yes and then being like, I haven't slept in a year. And this is not great, I'm now hallucinating things, which is what happens when you don't sleep for too long. So I have...

[Mary Robinette] This is something that you have personal experience with?

[Erin] I don't... I never hallucinate anything. One time in college, I didn't sleep for several days, and thought everything that started with the letter p was very funny for reasons that I don't understand to this day. But... So I use an Airtable because I... Which I've talked about, I think, on the podcast before. Which is basically fancy Excel, and I actually keep, like, a running tab of every project I have, how many words it is, when it's due, including my own personal projects. Like, I think this story is going to be 6,000 words and I'd like to get it done by June 1st or whatever it is. And then I have them all, like, in different categories and with different tags on them. This is also how I track have I gotten paid, have I put this on my taxes, did I sign the contract, because I am my own assistant. And so I have, like, writing time where I'm writing and assistant time where I'm assisting myself to write. And so I keep it all on a big spreadsheet. And when somebody says, do you want to do this project, I look and I say, based on this deadline, do I have enough hours in the day to get this done?

[DongWon] I'm just going to keep roasting you for the fact that Mr. I don't have a project has a custom Airtable...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] To track word count, project deadlines and sequence, and whether you've paid your taxes on it.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] This is incredible. This is such a useful framework.

[Erin] It's so messy! If it makes you feel better. My spreadsheet could be better organized.

[Mary Robinette] Oh my God.

[DongWon] I promise you, this is 10,000 times more organized than 95% of writers.

[Mary Robinette] I literally wrote down ask Erin for Airtable.

[laughter]

[I love that... I don't have a process]

[laughter]

[DongWon] I love that you're starting with this, though, because it's such a useful thing to keep in mind. Right? Because I think so many writers when taking on projects aren't keeping an eye on the business side of it. Right? When I say business side of it, I don't even necessarily mean the, like, negotiations or whatever. Right? But in terms of can I get this deliverable to them on the schedule they're asking for? Can I do the word count that they're asking for? And have I been paid for this? Like, just being able to keep an eye on that, like, freelance mindset of how do I slot this into my schedule is really hard and really difficult, and it's really hard to say no to stuff. Right? Like, I go through this all the time with clients who are under contract for the book, but then, like, Star Wars comes knocking. How do you say no? You know what I mean? And the answer is, you say no because you're going to do a bad job on both projects if you say yes. Right? And so I think it's really, really difficult and really hard to learn to say no. But it's also very important. And the other kind of note of caution that I would love to throw in here is there's a thing that I see that, like, I consider the danger zone, which is when you get into that, like, well, what if you... What if we push the deadline by 2 weeks? Could you do it then? And it's like... It's easy to say yes, you're going to want to say yes at that point, but really... You need to be real about the fact that what you need is six more weeks, not two more weeks. Right? And so I think that like trying to fit stuff in too tightly and trying to slot stuff into your process in this really constrained way will lead to a danger zone as well as when considering can I take this project on.

[Howard] Question. Does your spreadsheet track, like, historically how long it took you to do a thing? So that you've got the whole can I take this job, I think it will take this long, and then you circle back and do a post-mortem and say, hey, you know what? I actually was spot on with that guess. It took me exactly 3 weeks. Or, oh, gosh, I underestimated it.

[Erin] So, yes and no. So, yes in the sense that I actually have fields for all of that.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] That includes things like a star rating...

[Mary Robinette] [garbled]

[Erin] For like how I felt about the project...

[Howard] What you're saying is...

[Erin] But I don't...

[Howard] What you're saying is...

[Erin][garbled] Fill them out. I don't fill them out, because I'm not...

[Howard] You've asked the same question I've asked, and the answer is not yet, but I have room for it.

[Erin] I do have room for it.

[Howard] Okay.

[Erin] I'm excited about the star ratings that are, like, how I felt about... Like, How did I feel about the project on three... So there's... Okay. There's a thing with freelancing...

[DongWon] You have multiple star rating categories, or is it just one rating?

[Erin] No, it's a multiple rating. Because there's a...

[laughter]

[Erin] Thing.

[DongWon] You're so disorganized, it's embarrassing.

[laughter]

[DongWon] This is the time you do four episodes, because we're only going to get through this one first step. All right. Continue.

[Mary Robinette][garbled] process.

[Erin] There's a thing in freelancing where they say, like, you can be... There are three things that you should be. On time...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Good with your work, and pleasant to work with. And I also think that's true...

[DongWon] The iron triangle.

[Erin] Of the people you work with. You can do two out of three. If you miss the third one, it probably shouldn't be nice to work with, because that's... If people don't like you, they don't like you.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] But at the end, so what I want to do with my star system is, one is, like, how were they to work with, one is how did I feel about my timelines, and how did I feel about the actual strength of my work. So if I felt like I was on time and they were great, but, like, I did a poor job with this because it turns out I'm not great at writing about 18 forms of geese monsters, then in the future, I'll be like, another goose monster project? Maybe not for me. And so that's how I learn, like, the type of work that I like to do, in addition to how much I can do and, like, is this somebody I don't want to return to because they pay slow, they're mean, they yelled at me that time, they sent a goose after me, a physical goose...

[DongWon] That would be a one-star rating for me.

[laughter]

[DongWon] [garbled] to my house, that would be no stars.

[Dan] That's amazing.

[Mary Robinette] On the kind of goose, though, I mean, there's a rare [garbled]

[DongWon] All geese are mean.

[Dan] Yeah.

[DongWon] I think there's also an important lesson embedded in here, though, which is you can have these systems, but also you're only going to use the stuff that is...

[Mary Robinette] Immediately useful.

[DongWon] You're always going to want to put, like, more options in there, but the stuff that's actually useful is the stuff you're going to use. Right?

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] If that makes sense. Like, I think it would be really cool to have that data, but clearly, it's also like, oh, I don't have time to think about that. I'll do that later. Right?

[Erin] Exactly. It's like at the end of the year I'll do it, but I don't.

[Dan] I want to circle back to something you said earlier when you were talking about saying no to work. Sometimes you can delay, you can ask to delay and say I'm very interested in this, but I don't have time, can we come back a few months later? Because I've been in this situation, and I know that very often, the should I take this decision is not made on how much time I have, but it's made on how much money I need.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Dan] And if I'm really hard up for money, my dumb kids keep wanting to eat all the time...

[squeak]

[Dan] I am a lot more likely to say yes to stuff, and knowing that you have the freedom to push back a little and say I'm very excited about this, I would love to do it, but can I do it in 6 months is a really smart and important thing to be able to say.

[Erin] Yeah, and I was shocked the first time I asked somebody and they were like, yeah, sure, I don't care, and I'm like, wait, what?

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, it feels like they're like the powerful great and magnificent Oz, and then it turns out there's just, like, a person back there who's also dealing with their own deadlines and their own life, and they understand. I think this is something that being a teacher helped with, because when my students want extensions, I'm like, yeah, sure, whatever. Just get it to me in a reasonable time, so that I can do what I need to do. But I just made up this deadline because, like, it made sense for me at the time I made it up. So it's nice to be flexible. And with that, now that we've done three of the four... Just kidding.

[laughter]

[Erin] Go to the break.

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[Erin] Okay. So, I think we covered getting work before the break.

[Mary Robinette] And I've rolled the die again, so now we're on number four.

[Erin] Getting right. Yeah. This is about, like, having a personal life. So the downside of getting work... This is like the underside of that sandwich... Is that it can sometimes be hard to leave your work behind if you are me and leave the house. I think this is... I'm sure there are people who are saying, like, How can you leave your responsibilities behind? I have kids, I have troublesome work, I have a spouse, I have all these things. [I'm] a single old cat lady that they warn you about on the internet. And the good side of that is that I have a lot of time to write, and the bad side of that is that I can only write. And I could, like, never go out. And so I think it's just important to, for myself, think about my gravestone. That's going to sound bad. But...

[Chuckles]

[Erin] Like, I like to think on my gravestone will they say she worked a lot...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Like, she's a really hard worker? And so sometimes I will prioritize a personal experience that I cannot have again.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Especially if it's like a friend who I could see in 3 days, I might say, hey, I really have this deadline. But if someone's coming into town, if I'm at a convention having a really great conversation with someone I will never ever see again, I think it's better to have the life experience than to have the work experience. And sometimes you pay the price for that, or you're up late the next night. But I found that, like, I am a better writer when I interact with humanity.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] When I don't become, like, someone who, like, has no knowledge of the world. Ah, one thing that I was thinking about when we were talking about All the Birds in the Sky, is the idea at the end of the book that the people who are running the magic side to become really good at magic, you have to become really divorced from humanity. Which is why the solution that they come up with to save the world is basically to make all humans hate each other. And it's like I don't want to become that kind of magician.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] Like...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] It's not worth... Like, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] At that point. And so I think sometimes deadlines can feel so imminent, they can... Everything can feel like it's weighing on you. I often like to say, from a friend of mine who worked in public relations, it's PR, not the ER.

[laughter]

[Erin] Which is like... We're not...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] We're saving lives, but we're not saving lives.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And so I think that, like, trying to keep that perspective is something that is really important to me, and that I want other people to do as well.

[DongWon] There will be a lot of things in the book business that will want to make you... Or the writing business generally that wants to make you feel like it is a crisis and it is immediate and urgent. But at the end of the day, there's very little that is actually a thing that needs to be solved this instant.

[Mary Robinette] I will say that one of the things that I've been struck by when listening to you talk about I go out and I do these things is the number of times that I have gone out with you and you have brought work with you to the bar.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] Which is also like roasting you a little bit, but also it's... It is a... Sometimes it's both. I know that when I've been on a deadline, sometimes the thing that I've done is either arranged for... When I was building puppets, I'm like, hey, do you want to come over and do crafting while I'm building this thing? And so we can still socialize while that's happening. Or coffee shop dates. We get the socializing done, we both get work done. So sometimes you can actually blend them and do both of them.

[Howard] Douglas Adams said I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they go by.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] And... for 20 years, Schlock Mercenary was never late. Online, every day, new comic strip, for 20 years. That did not mean that I did not miss some deadlines. There were lots of things that I missed deadlines for. And I feel like the knowing that there's a deadline and knowing you have to have a life... It might not be a bad idea for an early career writer to just experience pushing back on a deadline or missing a deadline and discovering, hey, it made a whooshing sound and I lived. But don't pick one that you're going to get fired for.

[Mary Robinette] And warn people that you're going to miss it.

[DongWon] This is the thing. Here's the important thing. If you're going to miss a deadline, tell them early.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Things... If you tell me early that your book is going to be late, I can go and solve all those problems. If you wait until the day the thing is due, and then you tell me it's late, everything else is locked. We've locked the season, the cover's in, blah blah blah in. You know what I mean? And then things get very hard and expensive to move.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] And then people are pissed.

[Mary Robinette] And also it messes with the lives of other freelancers...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Mary Robinette] Because copy editors who have held space in their schedule to copy edit for you now aren't getting paid because your work is late.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Mary Robinette] And then when it comes in, their schedule is... So, it's... But if you let people know, everyone can adjust.

[Erin] And I will say that I think people always say this, and it is true. But I think from the internal side, it never happens that way.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] No one thinks I will wait till the last minute to tell people I will be late.

[DongWon] Yep.

[Erin] What happens is you get into a cycle of, like, optimism and shame.

[DongWon] Yes.

[Erin] Where you are... You wake up optimistic that today you will suddenly write 10,000 million words. Like, cause you're like if I just get in the zone, if I just do everything perfectly, it's going to be fine. It's going to be fine, fine, fine. And then as the day goes on, you're like, oh, my God, it was not fine. Things happened. I needed to eat lunch at one point, why did I do it? And then you think, oh, my gosh, I'm so ashamed, I don't want to say I'm failing. Maybe tomorrow I'll fix it, and I'll be the person... I'll be the best million person version of myself. And I think you can get into that cycle until the point that you actually hit the deadline. At which point, then you're sending like really sad emails, being like I don't know, I thought I was going to do it. And it is really hard to give yourself...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Permission to tell people how you are doing along the way, and say, like, hey, I think there might be a problem here. I'm going to try to catch up, but it's possible that there may be a delay. Even if you need to couch it that way so that they understand what's going on and you're not like a black box where you're like I just think... We all want to be the best versions of ourselves. But the idea that, like, you will hit perfection every day just because you have to... It may not happen. And if it does happen, you may not like the way it feels.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. I have a spreadsheet that I use when I'm writing to deadline, which is... I know. But the thing that it tells me is whether or not I'm on target to hit the deadline. Because I know for myself that I lose track of time. That I am not a good judge. And so I have created a tool that allows me to externalize that instead of relying on my own impulses. So I can see, oh, you're dropping off. And that helps me do a little bit more early warning.

[Erin] I think there's a great online tool for that as well, I just wanted to say, called Pacer.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, cool.

[Erin] That actually allows you to set like what your goal is and then you can set several ways. You can be like, I like to start strong and then finish, whatever. On this weekend, I actually can't work at all, and it will actually give you how much word count you should do each day.

[Mary Robinette] Oh, my goodness.

[Erin] Based on that system. So I just wanted to throw that out there, just for the fun.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Howard] We've talked about finding work, and we've talked about finding yourself after work, and you beautifully dodged the question of how do you actually work.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah. So, number two?

[Erin] Yes. Getting in.

[Dan] Can we lightning round these last two?

[Erin] Yes. So now we are going to go so fast. I'm sorry.

[Chuckles]

[Mary Robinette] No, I was like [garbled] extra long episode, because this is great.

[Dan] Awesome, let's do it.

[Erin] All right. Getting in, and getting done. So these are kind of two... Two of the same coin. But getting in, for me, something I've learned is I need to hook myself into something in order to be able to write it. Like hooking a fish. I've never gone fishing in my life, but I hear hooks are involved, so I'm going to use that.

[laughter]

[Erin] So, also like save the fish at the end, I guess. But... So, like, if it is a piece of prose, it is usually the hook of voice. If I don't understand the character's voice, it is really difficult for me to write a story. A lot of... I actually don't have that thing that Dan talked about on another episode, about like were the characters running away with you. But I do feel like if I can't feel like I'm listening to the character tell the story or I'm helping them tell the story, then it's just like words and it doesn't have any meaning to it. And so I spend a lot of time just trying to find the hook. Rewriting the first page, rewriting the first page again, trying this other way. So I do a lot of work on the, like, early side of things, trying to get myself hooked in. And at points, I was like this is not... Why am I wasting so much time on this? But it turns out that if I try to push myself past it, then I end up coming back to the beginning, but just like 16 Pages later and being like I hate this whole story.

[DongWon] What I love about this is we talk a lot about trying to hook the reader, and you're talking about how you need to hook yourself first. Right? If you're not excited about it, how can you ask anybody else to be excited about it? So I love that that's a great place to start in terms of, like, how do you find the thing that's exciting to you and get you engaged with it? And then that will tell you what you need to know for down the line, when you are like, okay, now how do I get readers excited?

[Dan] So do you have tricks or writing exercises or something like that to help you find that voice, or find that hook that you love about the story?

[Erin] I think there are two things that I do. One is that I will often go back and write an earlier part, like a big moment in one character's life that doesn't appear on the page of the story. Because it will help me understand them. Your voice is strongest, I think, when you're like at a time of emotional crisis. But in a story, I usually don't start [with] an emotional crisis, because it's like why? There's nowhere to go from there. And so I will write the story where the person is like... If I'm like this person is a kleptomaniac, well, I'm like, well, when did they steal the very first time? And why? This person gets... Has an anger management problem. What's a time they were really, really angry, and like what were they angry about? And a lot of times, that will get me the voice, and then I can take the voice, once I have it, and translate it. I also talk to my cat a lot. This I...

[Mary Robinette] Same.

[Erin] This helps me hook, I think, a little bit more when it comes to game writing and nonfiction, where I'm trying to think of an idea. So when I'm doing game writing, and they're like, okay, write a city. And I'll write up the type of city that I'm writing. I will like bounce ideas off by just saying them out loud. I mean, like, what if it was a city where everyone was inside out? No, that might be confusing. What if it was a city filled with geese? Like, just talk to my cat and, like, try to explain it to her. Because sometimes when you say things out loud, they just don't sound as good as they did in your head. And as opposed to inflicting them on my friends, I will usually first inflict them on my cat. And then maybe a friend. Like, I'll say I'm thinking about doing this idea, if it's not something under NDA, like, and just say it to them. And in the process of saying it, I can tell if it's wrong or it's right.

[Howard] There's this whole debugging method for coders called the rubber duck method.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Howard] Which is explain the problem to something inanimate, and you'll probably find the solution.

[DongWon] Honestly, the thing that I do, when I need to rubber duck it, is... Because I'm on the west coast, I'm often up after my friends are. So I will just pick a friend and text them a stream of ideas.

[Howard] You are a bad friend.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] That's... They have to read that.

[DongWon] Then at the end, I'll say ignore all this.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] But they've already read through it. But I also... I do a similar thing. But I will interrogate it on the page. Because if I start talking to Elsie, she will start talking back, and that's not useful.

[Chuckles]

[Erin] That's why I didn't teach my cat to talk.

[Mary Robinette] I know [garbled]

[Erin] I thought about it, but...

[Mary Robinette] So once you've got the hook, do you have to continue to rehook yourself every day that you're working on a project? Or is it really that once you get into it, you're kind of in and going?

[Erin] Once I'm in it, I'm in, because I will read what I have written previously. And that will get me, like, in... Like, I'm like, okay, oh, yes, this is exactly the way this person talks like. It's like talking... It's kind of like when you talk to a friend, and you're like,, this is the way that their speech goes.

[DongWon] Right.

[Erin] And you're like, oh, yes, I'm in it again. And then I can usually hurdle myself forward, headlight writer style for a while until I run into like there is no plot or like something needs to happen. And, like, at that point, a lot of it is just like trying to think of like eight different things that could happen, or... I actually have a lot of table top solo role-playing games that are about creating interesting ideas or like what could possibly happen in the world, and sometimes I use those just as a prompt. And even though I don't keep what I came up with, like... Sometimes even reacting, I mean, like it couldn't be that that, will help me to figure it out. A lot of things I also do to keep myself engaged is whatever the premise was of the story that I found was really interesting, like, this is a world filled with geese, like, I'm like, oh, yes, it is a world filled with geese. What else do geese do? Like, let me go read up on geese. Oh, they honk a lot and chase you. Oh, I don't have a chase scene in this. I should have my character chased by a goose. This is great, like, this will give it something to do. So if I go back to the origin story of my story, like, a lot of times, that's a way to kind of keep me going. And then to kind of get into the third one, the final one, which is get it done. It can be, if you're somebody like me, I like to revise as I go. It's easy to get stuck with, like, the perfect story in the front, like, this is in the front, not party in the back.

[laughter]

[Erin] It's bad. It sounds like[garbled]

[Mary Robinette] Zoom here.

[Erin] Yeah, exactly. It's like a zoom out thing, like, it's great from the waist up [garbled]

[laughter]

[Erin] [garbled] pants. And so, figuring out like how to keep going, and that is where deadlines are helpful.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Because sometimes the perfectionism of wanting to get the exact right cadence of one sentence is holding me back from finishing. So having some sort of deadline. This is why I like applying to fellowships. Because fellowships are an artificial deadline that want your work. And it usually has to be recent works. So I'll be like, oh, I would love to go to McDowell, let me see what their deadline is. And I actually put that on my spreadsheet with everything else so that I know what that deadline is and treat it the way I would treat an employer, so that that way I'm finishing my story, like, at a good time. I think the last thing that's a random writing process of mine is having Microsoft Word read my stories to me, because a downside of being a voice-y cadence person is I can talk myself into liking a story more than it should be liked, by, like, doing that spoken word thing where you just make everything sound really deep, but it's not.

[laughter]

[Erin] Not that all spoken word is that way, but we've all been there.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] Haven't we?

[Dan] You know that thing about words where they're stupid?

[Mary Robinette] No, it's true. As a narrator, like, one of my jobs is making bad things sound good. And not... Sometimes it's unfortunately true, but I have learned that I can.

[DongWon] Yep

[Howard] There are books that you have not told us about.

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[Howard] Yeah.

[Erin] Exactly. The Microsoft lady won't do that. She's horrible.

[laughter]

[Erin] And so I think... But she still sounds friendly. She's like friendly, but badly reading your stories.

[laughter]

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And so like I love to put her on it as I go, like... If I finish a section, I'll go get a snack while I have her read the whole story to me in the background, and hear, like, is there something that I feel like I'm bouncing off of. It could just be that she didn't do a great job, but a lot of times, it's that there's something there...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] That isn't quite working. And then I can identify it, and when I get back to my desk, fix it, and then have her read it to me again. If I could get my cat to read my stories to me, that would be ideal, but that has not happened yet.

[Chuckles]

[Howard] Teaching cats to read, I think, would be a mistake...

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Howard] I think.

[Erin] And now, this episode's gone on forever. So...

[DongWon] I hope we've all enjoyed this stealth announcement for Untitled Goose game 2...

[laughter]

[Erin] Homework, put geese in it. No.

[laughter]

[Erin] That's not the actual homework.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] So feel free.

[Mary Robinette] Thank you for letting us know about how you don't have any process at all.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] I feel very reassured about that. Do you have homework?

[Erin] I do have homework. Which is, I think what really helps me in sounding like I have more process than I feel like I have is writing down all the tips and tricks that are things that I do. Oh, the one last one I didn't mention is sometimes you just need to go to sleep.

[laughter]

[Mary Robinette] Yes.

[Erin] It's going to sound weird, but if you're up late... Sometimes it's better to nap for two hours...

[DongWon] Yeah.

[Erin] And come back to it then attempt to push through, because your brain just shuts down.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[DongWon] Your brain needs a break.

[Mary Robinette] Yeah.

[Erin] It's like your brain's like, nah, give me a rest. But I think write down things that you do, things that you are... Like, that have worked for you, any tip or trick that has ever resonated with you. Put them all on a page, and then see, like, is there anything cool about that page? And if nothing else, at least now you have got it all written down somewhere.

[Mary Robinette] This has been Writing Excuses. You're out of excuses. Now go organize your writing process. Maybe.

[Howard] With a spreadsheet.

[Dan] And a goose.